Hey, we don't review article comments before they're posted (though we do that for blog comments). I'll look into why those comments aren't showing up. It's not intentional, I assure you.

Scott
TOC Web Editor

Thanks for the info, Scott!

A couple of points:

The scene is tremendously supportive offstage to women. My experience has been that the dudes in the scene are excited to have women in their shows, give you heads up about opportunities, and want to include you in their social activities. A few of the dudes who have misogynist stage personas are some of the sweetest guys around.

Also, we have an abundance of awesome female comics in this city. Cameron Esposito, Allison Leber, Fay Canale, Beth Stelling, Lauren Vino, Cindy Cornelsen, Kat- it would have been cool if this article could have given the women in the scene more exposure.

Also, there are some really good rooms for seeing women comics here. At the Lincoln Lodge there's a lot of effort expended trying to make the atmosphere inclusive, and booking lots of woman comics, and a lot of that is due to the guys at the Lincoln Lodge, including Ken Barnard.

And even though the name 'Ha Ha Hotties' is problematic at best, the actual show is really cool. The one I performed at was a really good time, and hilarious all the way through. A good tagline for that show would be "Cooler than our name suggests."

I am sure as this discussion develops I will have more to say.

An unfair generalization about the scene? A lack of opinions and quotes from other female comics on the scene? Too obvious a topic for a story?

yes, yes, and yes. although the Junior Stopka joke quoted is hilarious.

the 'story', for what it is, is fine. i have to give it another read (now that i'm not half-asleep). the focus is boring and obvious, but maybe that's just me. i dunno, it's written decently at least, and we have very quotable talents here in Chicago!

the ken quote killed me, too. because i could to-tal-ly see him saying that, and it busted me up.

proud to be part of the "Boys Club",
k-rock -- the friendly stalker-groupie-writer-photog-drinker-lady

Good article. I thought it took a balanced look at the issue without slamming the "offensive" comics too hard. It's ironic that many of the male Chicago comics I've seen perform sexist humor are some of the kindest, nicest people you'd ever want to meet in your life. They're the sort of guys who wouldn't harm a fly, especially not a fly with a vagina. On the other hand, I've met, worked with, and heard stories about comics whose acts were fat piles of pandering fluff ("Give it up for the ladiiiiies! Ladies, you know you're the greatest!") but offstage they cheated on their wives and girlfriends and treated every woman they met like a piece of meat. Guess that's the difference between words and actions.

I've gotta say, I think it's pretty accurate and well done. I think it's hard for women comics sometimes, largely because they're only like 10% of the community, and you only get real respect by being one of the best, and there aren't many of those. So women are at a massive statistical disadvantage, if nothing else. So they're kind of outnumbered and vulnerable just from that. And it's true: bad comics take stupid, ugly pot-shots all the time.

At the same time I like a comic who just does their jokes and lets them stand or fall on their merits, and doesn't try to educate on stage. So I like to watch someone like F. Canale, who I think of as akin to a bread-and-butter comic like CJ Sullivan, a highly conflicted, inherently self-deprecating Everyperson in touch with human ridiculousness. I try to support that.

And I've heard male comics say flat-out that women aren't funny, which I despise, and to which I say: Maria Bamford, Tig Notaro, Deb Downing and Amy Sedaris, ya numb nuts.

I do want to say one thing in favor of the community, such as it is. We're by and large all wounded misfits, and I find it a very inclusive group in most ways. No one cares if you're short or fat or bald or gay or old or anything, really, as long as you're funny. So in many ways I think most male comics have no problem embracing a good female comic.

I just think it's harder for women standups because they're so few in number, relatively, and don't have misogyny to fall back on like cheap-ass male comics do.

But I thought the article was pretty fair and clear and good. It's a fact that there's just distasteful, ugly, badly unfunny misogyny out the wazoo.

But then we all kind of play that idiot-sexpot character (lord knows I do), so artistic freedom means you have to let people say whatever they want in an open-mike and even showcase situation, and let natural selection let the better people rise. That's freedom of speech and the free market and the American way, right?

Comedy can be mean, and it's almost our job to push back at PC mores, and standup is an inherently populist, democratic form, so the community mirrors the joke-creation process -- you have to wade through tons of crap to get to the good stuff, both in your writing and in watching people at the open-mike and unpaid-showcase level.

Steve Martin said it best: Comedy is not pretty.

But fair's fair: Freedom of the press means an observer from a journal can point out demonstrably true trends in what's being said from the stage too, right? And you have to admit dudes say some offensive shnizzle that can put anyone with a sister or mother or partner's skin to crawlin'.

It's funny though. You look at someone like Junior, and you see he's onto something, and ... it's kind of in the context of his whole act over time and over seeing him for a while that you know where he's coming from with a joke like that. He's playing a character, and it IS funny.

So it's complicated. But I think the article is pretty freaking balanced.

OK problem fixed. Note that we did not receive "several" comments, just a couple (though some were from the mighty Dan Telfer so maybe they should count twice?). Also note that there's a 500 character limit. Lame, yes, and something I'd like to get fixed one of these days but for now we're stuck with it.

buscemi talks too much and his jokes make me uncomfortable.... in my pants.

Thanks again, Scott!

kristy, your talk of your pants makes me uncomfortable.
Sexist? . . .

Why can my peers not look past my sexuality to see the content of my character? I can't help it that I ooze erotic vibrations. It's an affliction.

Congresswoman Mangel, I'll thank you to retract.

Chairman, I move to have my colleague from North Dakota censured.

With all due respect to the writer, I can't agree with this bit from the article:

"It’s no secret that sexist and misogynistic jokes run rampant in the Chicago stand-up scene: Blow jobs and bitchy girlfriends seem to be topics of choice among male comics."

Granted, I have not been to every room and every show in the city, but by and large this scene's male comedians are great people and nice guys, and they're much more creative than that statement gives them credit for.

Thanks Elizabeth, I agree. Yes, of course that shit is out there at open mics. News flash: everybody sucks at first and goes for the easy joke for a while. Sometimes a long while. I can't claim to begin to understand what it feels like for a women in this or any scene, but I don't think that's a fair assessment of whatever "scene" we have, in that I don't really think that "style" of comedy is really rewarded here. As for what's offensive, I've always thought that a comedian should only be "offended" by the lameness of the joke, not the subject matter. Whenever someone says "i could never laugh at that" or "no one should ever say that word" my hair stands up. I just want to say, "Yeah, but Richard Pryor in his prime would've had you pissing your pants talking about that subject." When you start saying so-and-as as a TOPIC or as a WORD is off limits, that's where you lose me. In parting, I really miss Fay Canale's room.

I'm mighty! Waaa-chaaaaaaa!

At best, this is a mediocre, forced and overhashed piece of fluff.

There is funny and smart, and there is shitty and offensive.

It makes it seem like, "Wow, there's somethin' new a-brewin' on the comedy trail I just found out about! Look out! Real hot button issue here!"

It makes everyone looked lumped in and stupid.

There are, always have been, and always will be, horrible male comics who seriously call women,"bitches" and such on stage. And seriously discuss having "3-ways" without irony. Frat trash humour sucks. No shit. Real expose over here.

Other "new" hot topics to cover:

"Open mic jokes about taking a shit are getting really gross nowadays!"

"Female comedians now have to resort to talking about boyfriends who come too fast! Can ya believe it!?"

"Black comics now resorting to using the "N-word" more than ever!"

"Dane Cook copycats on the rise!"

"Terrible improv troupes are getting ever more cringe inducing and terrible-er to sit through!"

THIS ARTICLE is offensive.

When I read the article, I thought "Really? Are women being discriminated against? Should I be offended, too? Wait--what?" Basically I was just miffed that they used a quote from one of the most brilliant comedians I've ever met (Barnard) as a "this is bad for women" quote. But yeah, we deal with the sexist stuff the same way we deal with cancer jokes when we've lost loved ones to it and alcoholism jokes when we're going through it, too. We comedians, female or not, have a thick skin, but thank you, Time Out, for looking out for us.

Personally, I go into hysterical fits of non-stop giggling over "slammable dick cave." Thanks, Burns.

Nothing infuriates me more than a woman, trying to make other women, seem like women!
What I mean by that is this...
BULLSHIT!
All of it.
I am a comedian and I happen to be a woman...
Even Andrew Dice Clay is now admitting to the equality of female comedy. So you should start too, girl who wrote this article.
All good comedians can take and give whatever the shitty ones dish. It has nothing to do with a room, it has to do with quality.
Carrie Callahan CAN hold her own and I can only guess is quite bothered by her representation in this boring article.

"I would fuck her" says the man...
"Thanks..I am totally fuckable and you're not, good sir", power back!
Comics are there to make fun of everything and insecurities play a huge role in comedy... some people can do it well and some say " I would rape the shit out of you". Which no one has said, that I know of, but is quite funny now that I think about it.
This "poor women comedians " thing is bullshit and i am sure all established comedians would agree.
The girl, Iliza Shlesinger on "last Comic" has said more than twice on camera that she thinks she is being pitted against because she has a vagina....I want to choke her...shut up, rise to the occasion and tell jokes, which she has, so good for her. Your vagina does not write your jokes so just quit including it unless it has something really good to say!

I am a true believer in supporting female and all comedy ...so I do and so do the rest of the comedians out there in Chicago. Do some more research

I can't wait for the next article
"Women should have the right to vote"

Sexual harassment comedy...oh boy!

Makes me wish the Chicago media would just stick to regurgitating press releases from the 'real' comedy clubs if their only interest is in beating the shit out of the independent rooms.

I wish we could have had just one member of the press turn up to our season-opening press conference. That way they would know that The Lincoln Lodge has nearly half a female cast.

One last thing, by my easy jokes comment I in no way meant the guys quoted in the article. And by Fay Canale's room I meant Fay Canale's womb. We're personal friends so I can say that. And my penis is small. So there. Please book me, vegan feminist bookstores and Zanies!

Of course they didn't interview enough other female comics. But it is to no fault of Time out Chicago. All of us female comics were in my kitchen cooking a nice roast for the male comics of the scene. Don't worry it wasn't sexist because we all gave them nice blow jobs afterwards.
I most certainley do not think that all the bros in the comedy scene tell jokes about boners and rape. But I do! It's all relative and let us not forget that it's comedy these are jokes. Yes I highley respect all the women doing comedy cuz it takes metaphorical balls to get up there for anyone. I can't ever answer why there aren't more female stand-ups I can say I think everyone can be funny if given the chance. It just takes confidence. And if time out looked around they would notice there are a lot of wonderful and hilarious women making a name for themselves in Chicago. Boners and Rape jokes to all. If no one crossed the line it would get boring real fast.
GODDESS POWER LADIES

Even though I pointed out some nuances the article missed earlier, I do agree with the premise of the article.

The nasty things men say about women at open mics and booked rooms in our scene make me feel exhausted.

I guess no one else feels that way, and that's fine.

No, I do agree with you also, Carrie. I don't like the idea of a broad brush painting every guy in the scene as a jerk, but certainly there are some ridiculous attitudes and behaviors you'll encounter at open mics and shows, and we've all had bad experiences.

Maybe this article (however problematic) and this open discourse about the topic will give some people some perspective on the way they choose to treat others, and realize that misogyny for the sake of misogyny isn't funny, isn't creative, and just makes them look mean, dumb and strikingly unimaginative.

There is so much talent and creativity in this scene, and I'd love to see it blossom as much as possible.

Let's be friends, y'all. We have something special here.

First off, I really appreciate the support of the local stand-ups I've seen giving me solace and condolences at the open-mics over this article, which is amusing to me. I'm actually flattered that someone would think of me.
The only thing I was really angry about is being included in the same article with Ken Barnard, Carrie Callahan, Victor Mariner, and Dave Odd, ewww... but not you Liz McQuern. I love you.

The quoted joke in the article was basically a very passive way of making me a patsy for the theme of the article. It's just very strange because in a previous article written by Time Out, the same author plus two other authors, actually voted that joke the best of the night. So either the author doesn't actually see very many local stand-up shows or just did some lazy research and found that joke in an old article. I also emailed the author before this article was published and she basically said she had all she needed from another member who also produces The Comedians You Should Know, so I didn't think I'd be mentioned.

I've never seen or heard anyone talk about bitchy girlfriends giving them blowjobs, which is apparently "rampant" here. Although, it would be interesting with a scene just full of Andrew Dice Clays.

I do remember that story about Carrie saying someone would "fuck her". It was at an urban room, but they won't mention any names in the article for fear of being considered racist. The south side rooms probably use more misogynistic jokes more steadily than the north side rooms, but nobody will ever complain openly about that or mention any names because they are simply cowards. However, I'm an easy target that replaces their fears.

I actually thought the article was going to be about woman being considered not funny or not being booked as often, but I guess the author realized that wasn't how people in the scene feel, including me. However, I do feel that a few woman comedians may have a chip on their shoulder, and wrongly target that sinking feeling towards others. I think the people in Chicago and in the scene have been very supportive of all the great female comedians in the city. Especially Carrie Callahan, who I think is the one the best performers in the city right now. She probably has done more showcases than any other comedian ever during their first year in Chicago, and she deserves it.

I'm just happy I have a mention in a magazine that nobody reads.

Love you all,
Peace,
-Junior

You know, the difference between Chicago comedians and other people in "scenes"? I came here completely expecting a burning barn, and instead you are all as polite as librarians having tea. It's a brave new world...sort of...

I already made a bunch of my points on the online version of the article. But this article basically paints the female comics as these fragile innocent people that are getting pushed around and bullied by the big mean male comics.

Fact of the matter is that not only can most of these girls hold their own in any showcase in the city, but a lot of them tell MORE inappropriate rape/abortion/domestic abuse/roofie jokes than any of the male comics do.

Juniors joke that was cited is meant to make fun of the frat boy assholes that drug and rape women, not to celebrate them. Nearly every chauvinistic joke that comes out of a comics mouth is said in a sarcastic way, to mock chauvinism, not embrace it. The female comics are just as likely to use jokes of this manner to demonstrate a point than the male comics are.

To use the name of this site in a sentence, stand-up comedy is one of the last bastions of free speech in this country. If you want to nit pick about the sexism, racism, political incorrectness of each joke then don't come to an alt or indy show where the comics aren't censored and are doing original unfiltered material. If you want to hear jokes about changing diapers, shopping malls, Viagra, and topical material from the mid 90's go to Zanies or some other mainstream club where your delicate sensibilities won't be riled.

I already made a bunch of my points on the online version of the article. But this article basically paints the female comics as these fragile innocent people that are getting pushed around and bullied by the big mean male comics.

Fact of the matter is that not only can most of these girls hold their own in any showcase in the city, but a lot of them tell MORE inappropriate rape/abortion/domestic abuse/roofie jokes than any of the male comics do.

Juniors joke that was cited is meant to make fun of the frat boy assholes that drug and rape women, not to celebrate them. Nearly every chauvinistic joke that comes out of a comics mouth is said in a sarcastic way, to mock chauvinism, not embrace it. The female comics are just as likely to use jokes of this manner to demonstrate a point than the male comics are.

To use the name of this site in a sentence, stand-up comedy is one of the last bastions of free speech in this country. If you want to nit pick about the sexism, racism, political incorrectness of each joke then don't come to an alt or indy show where the comics aren't censored and are doing original unfiltered material. If you want to hear jokes about changing diapers, shopping malls, Viagra, and topical material from the mid 90's go to Zanies or some other mainstream club where your delicate sensibilities won't be riled.

I found this article tame, and being terribly bothered by it is foolish. Some things in the article are absolutely true. I took issue with some of the smaller points of the piece, which I'll elaborate on:

I doubt I have the right to speak for every member of Comedy House, but when I read the article this statement stood out to me: "the recent influx of up-and-coming, male-run stand-up nights—Comedy House and CYSK among them—has swung the spotlight onto the boys’-club vibe."

Comedy House (originally just known as the Bird's Nest Crew or some iteration thereof) was unimportant and off of everyone's radar for two years. Suddenly we moved the show over to Timothy O'Toole's, started to draw actual audiences, then people gave a shit. Then it became an issue that the members of Comedy House are all dudes. We are also all white dudes which should be mentioned as well. (Except for Fojas but he left us with holes in our hearts.)

We started the showcase as a way for us to know we'd be able to hang out as a group at least twice a month. We were all busy with our schedules and never got to see one another after we left the Bird's Nest. That is where the idea for Comedy House came about, so is it our fault we are an all male group? Is the disproportionate number of female comics in the scene? Is it the fact that almost every comic we booked at Bird's Nest would blow us off once the bar stopped giving free beer to the performers? This article made it seem as though we sat in a drawing room wearing cloaks and began a diabolical campaign to exclude female comics, which could not be further from the truth.

Also, mentioning Comedy House and CYSK in the same paragraph as open mikes was irresponsible. Booked showcases and open mikes are different things, and the author of this piece should have known that.

I'm glad something was written about the scene, and I did learn a great deal from the piece, but I also feel as though the last thing the scene needed was something divisive like this.

Another thing that has come up for debate on here is the content of the comedy in this scene. If you think the content of someone's comedy should be up for debate, as to what is acceptable; you're a lunatic and should quit comedy. Every joke has a victim. Simply put, if you censor a comic, you are a coward of epic proportions and you make me sick.

Is it just me, or did this article not really say anything at all? Kind of short, considering the subject matter.

Also blow-job jokes aren't always about women.

Also, Mike Lee is not white.

I don't know about the Chicago scene in particular, but when I go to a lot of comedy shows, there tend to be numerous anti-women jokes and lots of anti-gay jokes. It bugs me.

It's one of those things where if it's done correctly and really humorously, then it's genius. But when delivered poorly, it becomes racist and offensive.

Like when people are like "gay people think about having anal sex all the time, and all they ever say is 'Hey HEY hey!'", that bugs me out. You'd be surprised at how many comics go there in this day and age.

It's not that the content itself is necessarily offensive, it's whether the audience thinks "does this comedian really embrace this attitude?" Are they mocking a way of thinking or really expressing their own mind?

Sometimes comics don't establish a rapport and let the audience know they're cool before pulling out the hot-button topics, and that's uncomfortable on both sides of the experience, because nobody really knows what's going on.

But unfortunately, sometimes people really are actually telling their truth when they tell homophobic, racist, or woman-hating jokes. You will reveal a lot about yourself through the content of your comedy, sometimes more than you really want to.

And just as your conscience wouldn't let you hear that kind of talk by the coffee machine at work, or around your dinner table, and allow your silence to make you complicit in the fostering of hatred, you have to address this in the comedy sphere of your life, as well.

Also - the first five people to email me a funny, surprising fresh twist on a dick joke get a $25 gift card to Bennigan's*!

*Don't actually email me. I have a ton of things to do today. And of course, Bennigan's declared bankruptcy and closed its restaurants. Just wanted to slip a terrible joke in there for levity's sake.

women suck at comedy.

David Angelo, you are adorable.

Well, now we are discussing style rather than content. Preference in style differs with everyone. And, discourse is the only way to combat ignorance. Keeping it quiet is the modern way of maintaining racist, sexist, and homophobic attitudes. Rather than try and establish rules for comics, explain to them how their comedy affects the audience. Otherwise this will remain a problem.

Elizabeth - don't take this the wrong way - but are you a therapist? Let me quote you:

"sometimes people really are actually telling their truth when they tell homophobic, racist, or woman-hating jokes. You will reveal a lot about yourself through the content of your comedy, sometimes more than you really want to."

Do you know this for a fact or is this just speculation? I think it is completely irresponsible to assume that "offensive" jokes are the product of hatred, and to even compare the two churns my stomach.

You're running a comedy blog - for comedians and comedy! Some comedy is "offensive!" IT IS! You can't go around though accusing people of being hateful. It's not fair.

You're spreading the censorship, your encouraging the offended to feel offended, and I just don't feel like any of you are qualified to speak so surely on the subject.

I talk to a lot of comics - a lot. And they all feel like the "offended" are starting to talk out of their asses. No one wants to say "STOP TALKING" to you guys.

Don't make people feel guilty for something they shouldn't. It's the most unfairest of things you can do to a person. You're not that offended. You can't be. And if you are, go see someone about it. No one is personally attacking anyone here.

Instilling guilt - now thats offensive.

Again - not trying to start trouble - but just be nice!!! JUST BE NICE and people will be nice back. That's the whole trick. You're confusing people into believing that constant politeness is the answer. Maybe in your stuffy office, but not in mine.

BE NICE!

I love women by the way.

Hi, Mike, thanks for asking these questions, I'm glad for a chance to clarify.

Of course I don't think everyone who tells a joke about racism (for example) is racist. I meant sometimes it's not clear enough when someone is assuming a persona and telling a joke in that character's voice, and if that is not understood, it might be wrongly assumed (by the audience as well as other comics) that person is speaking as themselves and expressing their own opinions. That even happens with nationally-known comedians.

I think everyone agrees that it sucks that the article made a lot of guys feel like a finger was unfairly pointed at them. I'm quoted as saying the article made some gross generalizations, and it's really crappy for anyone to be unfairly stereotyped, falsely accused, or stripped of their individuality and lumped into a group. As I said, "by and large this scene's male comedians are great people and nice guys, and they're (much more) creative..."

At the same time -- this is just part of human nature -- sometimes people really do mean the things they couch as "just joking," whether they're a waiter, a senator, or a comedian, on stage with a mic in hand. I'm not saying "it happens in Chicago stand-up XX% of the time," I'm just saying it happens. Acknowledging that is not a blanket accusation or a specific accusation, it's just a statement of fact.

Having said that, bring on the dirty jokes! I'm not offended by language itself, and I don't think any subject should be off-limits.

We're all refining, show after show, learning to be better comedians, and to bridge the gap between what we're trying to express and what is ultimately received by the audience. Sometimes you tell a joke that is not received the way you meant for it to be, for a million different reasons, one of which can be the innate volatility of certain subjects. We're all figuring that stuff out together.

P.S. I feel like I should add, for those who only know me from online -- anyone who knows me IRL would tell you I'm one of the most non-judgmental, friendly people you'll ever meet, and I mean it when I say the Chicago stand-up scene is full of talented and awesome people.

I'm totally on board with the "be nice" bit.

...and I think I'm officially out of words on this topic.

Thanks for the clarification - I still feel like there are two different Elizabeth's saying 2 different things but whatever - your latest post did make me feel a bit better.

You guys all need to watch how you say things when categorizing them with hate. If the percentage is that small of people that really do it, then whats the point of talking about it? We can talk about people that fuck horses all day too, but who the fuck cares? They're creeps and eveyone knows it.

There's a lot of backtracking with this whole argument. Accusing hate is a big deal. Bigger than I think you understand. It puts fear into people when it's not necessary.

Here's an idea: Let's teach people how to NOT get offended by words. Is that a better fight than the fight against "offenders?" If we learn to not be offended, we'll all be happy. Let it role off you're back. It's something no one tries to do.

Don't let people hold the remote to your emotions.

BTW - thanks for posting my initial post. I honestly didn't think it would be approved.

I think the conversation has wound down on this post, but I just want to reiterate a few thoughts, because I think a lot of people got their feelings hurt by what was asserted in the Time Out Chicago article:

None of us featured in the story knew it was going to be a "misogyny in comedy" story -- not me, not Carrie, not Ken, and I assume not Junior, Dave, or Victor.

We were approached with questions about "why there are so few women doing stand-up, and what could be done to change that?" We answered. Then someone outside of the scene, who doesn't know us as well as we know ourselves, wrote an article.

I think everyone felt misled about the article's focus, and misrepresented and mischaracterized in the final product. Ken and Junior were set up as patsies with jokes taken out of context, and Carrie was in the position to be the focal point of any negative reaction, mostly because hers was the only photo used.

Are some guys hurt because they're not misogynistic, as hinted in this article, but actually nice guys? Of course. And Carrie and I aren't cranky and angry, as hinted in this article, but actually warm and friendly girls. So we all got smeared.

They also wanted to run a picture of me with the article, but I didn't have one for them, so anyone who feels like all of the fallout from this is Carrie's fault simply because her picture is in the article, well, jump on me, too.

...or don't, because this article is someone else's framing of our thoughts and experiences.

Have a good weekend, everyone, and email me if you didn't get an invite to my party on the 16th. Let's heal with pizza, cupcakes, and booze.